"I think the way we recorded the first record caught a lot of people off-guard and sent a lot of bands back to the studio," says Manson. "They realized they could enjoy the advantages of sampling technology to their benefit; they could steal from different genres of music and still be true to who they were as a band." See for yourself how this approach works by viewing a live, exclusive version of "Special" on Issue No. 23 of the LAUNCH CD-ROM. The entire transcript of DiMartino's conversation with Shirley Manson and Butch Vig appears below:
LAUNCH:
Now that you and the band have been together a few years, things inside and outside of the group must have changed for you. When you stop to consider how the music-buying audience relates to your band, what do you imagine they perceive?
BUTCH:
At first, I think people thought we were just three producers with a singer we hired off MTV. Now, since we've toured, put out five or six videos, and done tons and tons of press, the perception has changed. We're a band, and Shirley's the focal point. Anytime you have someone with that much charisma, that just happens.
SHIRLEY:
It depends whether you're a fan of the band or not a fan. In my state of paranoia, I believe people think, "Well, here you have these three geniuses and this loud-mouthed idiot." The detractors of the band probably perceive it that way. When in fact, it's four idiots!!!
LAUNCH:
Shirley, how has the recording experience changed in the years since you made your first album with these guys?
SHIRLEY:
The very first record we didn't really know each other as a band at all. So when we came to the second, we were proud of the fact that we'd become a cohesive unit. We trusted each other and knew each others' sensibilities. Because of that, there's more of a live energy captured on this record. I was more confident vocally and a more confident lyricist. On the first record, my lyrics would get picked apart by some of the other members and I would use their ideas instead of my own.
BUTCH:
Version 2.0 was the first time that all four of us were in a room and wrote together from day one. On the first album, Shirley joined after we already had some musical ideas. I can't tell you how awkward it is to walk into a studio and write with someone you don't know. It took us a long time to be comfortable to express yourself without fear of being criticized. After touring, we took a short break, went into the studio and started recording by jamming and improvising, so a lot of the songs came out of improvising lyrics, drum and bass grooves, guitar riffs. They were much more focused around Shirley's singing and lyrics, whereas last time she had to fit that into a big puzzle.
SHIRLEY:
This time I was much more confident saying, "No, this is what I want to say." I got to do my part, the same way they got to do their thing.
LAUNCH:
What's the recording process like for this band?
BUTCH:
Left to our own devices, we'd still be in the studio. Right before Christmas '97, Shirley put her foot down and said, "You have to finish this!" Five or six of the songs had a hundred tracks, and a lot of the songs became this huge puzzle. She started getting stir-crazy. We knew we wanted to release "Push It" as the first single, but it had 127 tracks and it took us six days to finish. It made us mental, but once we finished it, we had an idea of where we wanted to go with the rest of the album.
SHIRLEY:
It's weird how we work: The guys very much want to be in the recording room 24 hours a day. I usually work outside the studio, and come in every now and again. I have my say in the band; I have my opinions. I can't keep my opinions to myself!!! I'm very forthright in the studio and I get my 10 cents in. But I'm much more irrational than they are at times; I'll just say, "Forget it! Let's finish this and move on." And they're like, "No! We're not finished, let's continue to tinker." If I wasn't in the band, nothing would never get done!
LAUNCH:
How do you describe the unique way Garbage makes music? There's so much going on in every song--it's like sampling, but you're actually playing. I hear references through melody and lyrics to everything from the Beach Boys to the Pretenders.
SHIRLEY:
I feel it's a new way of sampling. You're always trying to do things differently than the way you did before. It's a slightly different slant on sampling. It's like the movie Blade Runner, the scene is set in a place with things past and future, different languages. I see our music like that: a vision of the moment, but using lots of references from different places in time. It sounds arty-farty and pretentious when I try to explain it, but it pays a little homage to things that made us musicians. It's like wearing your heart on your sleeve.
LAUNCH:
Shirley, how does your role in Garbage differ from the other bands--Angelfish and Goodbye Mr. MacKenzie--that you've been in?
SHIRLEY:
It's completely different--it's a weird quandary. I'm a very intimate member of this band, a fourth member, and I'm integral to how it works. But it's also different from the first band I was in, which was based on intimate friendships. That was a personal mess. In this band, we're very close and very intimate. We rely on each other. It's almost like being in a squadron in the Army. You go for a common goal.
LAUNCH:
Shirley, you're very outspoken and vivacious. You get most of the attention in the press and rightly so. I mean, you're very talented and extremely attractive. Does this cause internal conflict in the group?
SHIRLEY:
I think we're very lucky in that it isn't an issue. They like having someone who's much more of an extrovert, more verbal and upfront. They're pragmatic and think before they speak. I'm the pitbull and they're sort of the dog-walkers, as it were. In any band, the lead singer attracts the main body of attention. That goes with the territory. I'm lucky that the other members don't have ego problems. There's no tension. They enjoy the fact that I have to suffer through it all the time. I like it! I'm a natural showoff and a natural communicator.
BUTCH:
Having a lot of attention focused on Shirley is a good thing. I like to walk down the street and not be bothered. Shirley can't walk down the street without being recognized, but she deals with it really well. In fact, a lot of the focus initially was on me because of my connection with Smashing Pumpkins and Nirvana. It got to be irritating. They would ask a few question about Garbage and then go to: "What was inside Kurt's mind?"
LAUNCH:
How do you guys cope with the fact that you've made some hits now--that you're a popular success?
BUTCH:
We've had a lot of years of working with bands that failed miserably. To be in a band that's doing well commercially and critically is really satisfying. Since we're grounded, we don't take it for granted. We don't take it as a given that we'll be around forever. There's a degree of self-loathing and self-deprecation. We make fun of ourselves. Don't take it too seriously because that's not healthy. For younger bands, it can destroy you. Since we've suffered through a lot of crazy years, it keeps us a lot more grounded.
SHIRLEY:
A lot of the success of the band, as in what people imagine is the typical archetypal picture of success--our friends and family get the most enjoyment out of those things: the TV shows and magazine covers. They get off on it totally. You get more of a kick out of seeing them get a kick out of it than you get a kick out of it yourself. You don't get a chance to stand outside your body and say, "Oh we're successful." I think we're in denial regarding the success of the band.
LAUNCH:
Shirley, what have you learned about music fans in your experience with Garbage?
SHIRLEY:
Our fans are incredibly loyal. We went into the studio, came out with a new record, and didn't know what to expect. Our fanbase has really stuck with us. Fans don't really stick around with bands anymore. Bands have one huge record and then the fans forget them. We were worried that would happen to us. And it really hasn't. We feel very close to our fans. They're the ones who allow us to do what we do. We have a connection that others may not get to enjoy. They're very creative too. We get lots of artwork through the post and a lot of websites have been designed on our behalf, and it's really cool.
LAUNCH:
And what have you learned about the music industry in your experience with the band?
SHIRLEY:
I'm a horrible cynic. The whole band is cynical of the industry. We're not cynical about the music or the way we get to live: touring, playing every night. That's wonderful, special; it's brilliant and never feels like a drag. Unfortunately, to get your music out to the public, you have to sign a deal, and you enter into a horrendous diabolical pact, and you have to operate within the confines of the record industry. I try to separate the music from the business side of things, which would turn anyone into a bitter, twisted maniac.
LAUNCH:
Back to the fans. When you meet fans or members of the press, what do you find they are most interested in asking you about?
SHIRLEY:
Sex, for the most part.
LAUNCH:
Really?!
SHIRLEY:
Actually, it depends who the person is. The fans just want to know all kinds of general things. Detractors try to diminish me by saying something outlandish, saucy, or tiresome. They're obviously not getting it enough, so they feel they have to get it from me. Then, they talk to the gentlemen in the band about technology.
LAUNCH:
Do you see yourselves as pioneers in pop music? Do you hear other bands' records and think, "Hey, they got that from us?"
SHIRLEY:
I think maybe the way we approached the recording of the first record certainly caught a lot of people off-guard and sent a lot of bands back to the studio. They're not necessarily emulating us, but they realized they could approach music in a different way than before. They could enjoy the advantages of technology to their benefit. And they could steal from different genres of music and still be true to who they are as a band. When we first came out, only we and a handful of other bands were doing this, and I don't know if we pushed the door open, and almost everybody's doing it now. I don't know if that's emulating, I just think it's a sign of the times. We just managed to capture people's attention and imagination.
LAUNCH:
Being in this industry affords you access to all kinds of people, including your idols, I'm sure. There must be some incident that stands out in your mind as one of the most memorable experiences of your career.
SHIRLEY:
The very first and most profound was meeting Chrissie Hynde on Top Of The Pops, which is a famous British pop program. It was our first appearance, which was history in the making. A huge big deal. We arrived at the studios to record, and Chrissie Hynde was there. And you've got to understand: during my adolescence she possibly saved my life. She was singing an acoustic version of "Kid." She sauntered over in her leather pants and I'm thinking, "Be cool, be cool." And she said, "Hey, I love you guys. I love your music." And I threw myself at her feet and cried out, "I love you!" The other guys in the band are looking at me in horror, like "How could you lose your cool like this?"
LAUNCH:
This is kind of a silly question, but I must ask it anyway. "Garbage" is a pretty interesting thing to call yourselves. What kind of feedback did you get on the name, particularly at the beginning?
SHIRLEY:
Well, I used to be in the band Angelfish. And my mom loved that name. I'd previously been in Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, and she hated that name. When I got invited to record with Butch Vig, and I said, "Mom, this is what I'm doing. There's only drawback: the band is called Garbage." She gasped in total horror and never got over it.
BUTCH:
Calling yourself Garbage is probably not the smartest thing to do, but we thought it was a great name for a pop band--very tongue-in-cheek. A lot of people think pop is fluff, but we think you can write a pop song with some depth. That is why we think Garbage is a great name for a pop band.
LAUNCH:
How do you spend your spare time?
BUTCH:
I don't really have a lot of hobbies. I read a lot of books. All four of us do. I was a film student at University Of Wisconsin. On a day off, we usually go to the movies. I'm a hardcore Green Bay Packers fan, and I like to play golf every now and then.
SHIRLEY:
Movies, books, sleeping, and eating. That's really sad. I'm the biggest, laziest, potato couch slob. I keep on hearing about yoga, and working out and windsurfing and all this glamorous stuff, and all I want to do is watch the telly.
